Super Smash Bros Melee

[G U R U]

In my opinion this game is the best game of the last decade. Pretty bold statement I know but if you research how complex this game is underneath its party game exterior you'll see that it is of the most technical, flawless, and fun games of all time. I've been playing it for over 5 years now and I honestly can't see myself ever quitting for good. I stopped playing for almost a year when Brawl came out and I really regret it. Brawl is such a bad game in comparison.

Anyway, discuss this masterpiece of gaming and please no Brawl talk in here as this is the past gen section.

Oh ya and my main is Fox but I can play almost everyone well. Some of my high secondaries are Marth, Sheik, Peach, Cpt Falcon and Ganondorf.

[Oni]

Complex? You mean how it can be exploited via the Wave Dashing Technique, making people think they're pro?

The lack of the WDT doesn't make Brawl a bad game, and I much prefer it.

64 > Brawl > Melee.

[G U R U]

:sigh:

... I have a feeling this is gonna take a turn for the worst.

It's not just Wavedashing that makes Melee better. It's L-cancelling, the physics in general, the stages, and how there are legit combos. Only things better about brawl are the graphics and character roster.

I'm surprised you like 64 the best though. Personally I like Melee the most and then 64 and Brawl in second.

[Oni]

Well, it's generally going to turn out that way when you off handedly bash something in the OP.

Melee has a bad camera, Brawl has L-cancelling, Brawl has most Melee stages, 'legit combos' are only pertained by the character user. I don't think "physics" is a legit claim, considering most aspects are identical in all 3 games.

[Bonediddly]

I like Melee better. Why? I hate smashes.

[Oni]

-> Items -> Smash Balls: Off.

[Chris]

In my opinion

This is what everyone's going to keep in mind when posting here.

As for the good spirited debate, They are generally rated pretty close by most big name review companies and I can't say I disagree with them. As I have played both, I like and dislike different things about each game. In Brawl specifically, I didn't enjoy the long story mode, it was alright at first and got boring. I did although enjoy the character selection and the new trophy's. The smash's were a neat idea but not necessarily right for every match, and of course you could turn them off as Oni pointed out. I found that 64 and melee are just more easy to pick up and play where as Brawl feels like you need to dedicate a good amount of time to really get the full enjoyment out of the game, which isn't a bad thing, just depends on how much time you have to spend.

And that's how I felt about the games.

[G U R U]

Well, it's generally going to turn out that way when you off handedly bash something in the OP.

Melee has a bad camera, Brawl has L-cancelling, Brawl has most Melee stages, 'legit combos' are only pertained by the character user. I don't think "physics" is a legit claim, considering most aspects are identical in all 3 games.
Please explain how Melee has a bad camera. Brawl does not have L-cancelling. Yes you can cancel certain moves if you perform them right but it's not even close to the same thing. All of Brawl's new stages suck except for Smashville and they also changed some old ones that made them worse (FD, PS) as well as not putting in Dreamland AT ALL. The physics in Melee are like Earth's gravity, and Brawl's is like the moons. 5x more floatier, therefore slower, which is not a good thing btw.

[Zero Gravity]

I like Brawl better because Falco gets to be different from his Fox counterpart, that and it includes Wario and Sonic, and Mr Game n Watch is a beast!

[Oni]

Please explain how Melee has a bad camera. Brawl does not have L-cancelling. Yes you can cancel certain moves if you perform them right but it's not even close to the same thing. All of Brawl's new stages suck except for Smashville and they also changed some old ones that made them worse (FD, PS) as well as not putting in Dreamland AT ALL. The physics in Melee are like Earth's gravity, and Brawl's is like the moons. 5x more floatier, therefore slower, which is not a good thing btw.

Melee tends to like to constantly zoom in and out, rather than keeping at a certain distance, depending on how far away the characters are. Yeah, and that's generally how cancelling works.

"All of Brawls new stages suck"...well, I can't argue that point at all because it's entirely subjective. I happened to like the Melee levels included.

I can't believe you complained about things being floaty in a game that has Mewtwo.

Also, I prefer 64 out of all 3 for obvious reasons. Anyone can pick up and play it, douchbags aren't going to claim they are 1337 by exploiting holes in the gameplay and no one is going to complain about levels. Plus the controls are the best, as C-sticking isn't as easy to do due to the N64 controller.

[Kibs]

My brother and I were big into 64 and Melee, by the time brawl came around he'd sort of "grown out of" video games, and I mostly just played on my own. Nostalgia dictates that I had the most fun with 64, since my brother and I were fairly well matched, though it would almost always come down to who could rollgrab faster than the other person.

Melee introduced a few new things that changed the game a lot, it also introduced me to Shiek, Marth, and young Link, memory tells me I was good with them, but that's merely subjective.

I'm going to say Brawl isn't as good a game as the other two merely because it seemed like they were trying to do too much with the game, and while you can turn off smashes, they're a fun part of the game, however I felt like they didn't spend any time balancing them, as some were incredibly easy to KO with (Link, Sonic) while some others are incredibly hard to even hit your opponents with (Meta, Snake). The story mode was fun, but got very old by the end.

In my opinion Melee is the best, as 64 feels like it's missing a bit, and Brawl feels like it's doing too much. In melee and in brawl they did new things with the physics, and they way the characters feel, and I have to agree with guru on this one. Yes mewtwo is incredibly floaty in melee, however every other character is incredibly floaty in Brawl. I like the way you tried to argue that point Oni, sounding like you had a quick witted argument against the floaty thing, but once you get past the "you're wrong" attitude it's pretty easy to tell what you were doing there.


On the arugment about all of these game exploits, I will point out what I always point out about every fighting game enthusiast I've met:
Honestly if you're going to devote enough time to count invincible frames, and practice move canceling and whatnot to pull off perfect combos you're a little *too* into the game and need to go out to that strange bright place known as "outside".

Anyway let's wrap this up before this degrades into nothing more than a flamewar. Everyone likes a specific game for their own reasons, and telling someone they're wrong for having an opinion is pig-headed and egotistical. So how about instead of telling everyone else why their favorite game isn't the best, we just say why we like the games we do without the petty need to be right all of the time.

Mmkay?

[mitamaking]

I honestly can't stand the tournament scene do to this game,No Items, Final Destination
So dull, I love Brawl because it to a point tried to kill the tournament scene.
I miss Roy and Mewtwo though.

[Kibs]

I honestly can't stand the tournament scene do to this game,No Items, Final Destination
So dull, I love Brawl because it to a point tried to kill the tournament scene.
I miss Roy and Mewtwo though.true that, Ike is pretty cheap, at least you could counter Roy's annoying tendencies.

My brother and I used to play tourney style, but that was because 90% of the time, whoever lost ended up saying it was cheap (due to items). But yeah, the game is meant for party style thing, and brawl did kill that.

[Oni]

But yeah, the game is meant for party style thing, and brawl did kill that.

How? It's still a party brawler that any one can pick up and play. I don't see how that's valid.

[Llian]

When I had brawl I enjoyed it but it quickly got boring. I dunno if it's just me. I never played Melee.

[Oni]

When I had brawl I enjoyed it but it quickly got boring. I dunno if it's just me. I never played Melee.

Don't worry, all three are like that. They're all brawlers with little depth to them. I'll only really pick up Brawl or 64 if a friend comes over.

[Kibs]

How? It's still a party brawler that any one can pick up and play. I don't see how that's valid.Context.

If you'd like me to make a bit more of a solid point I could explain that since we're all talking from personal opinion, brawl killed the party game aspect for me. If you'd like an example of that watch yahtzee's review of the game, where he basically stated that to unlock all of the characters and courses to make the game really party ready, as in not be limited to half of the characters and stages, you'd have to play through the 10-hour single player mode, making you "that guy" at the party. So the only way to truly enjoy the game at a party would be to play on the console somebody owned, but not allow them to join in.

But I digress, this is just my opinion.

[Oni]

Context.

If you'd like me to make a bit more of a solid point I could explain that since we're all talking from personal opinion, brawl killed the party game aspect for me. If you'd like an example of that watch yahtzee's review of the game, where he basically stated that to unlock all of the characters and courses to make the game really party ready, as in not be limited to half of the characters and stages, you'd have to play through the 10-hour single player mode, making you "that guy" at the party. So the only way to truly enjoy the game at a party would be to play on the console somebody owned, but not allow them to join in.

But I digress, this is just my opinion.

All the characters in Brawl can be unlocked outside of story mode through party-based brawling.

Yes, but this is true of Melee as well, isn't it? After all, Brawl only had 2 more unlockable characters than Melee (Melee = 12, Brawl = 14).

[G U R U]

Don't worry, all three are like that. They're all brawlers with little depth to them. I'll only really pick up Brawl or 64 if a friend comes over.
Are you serious?! Melee is one of the most deep games of all time. You could play it for 10 years and not know everything about it.

I'd like to see your example of a deep game. You'll probably say some over cliched answer like Half-Life 2.

[Oni]

Are you serious?! Melee is one of the most deep games of all time. You could play it for 10 years and not know everything about it.

I'd like to see your example of a deep game. You'll probably say some over cliched answer like Half-Life 2.

The gameplay in all 3 Smash games is pretty shallow. No one can really deny that.

My example of a deep game? The Disgaea series.

[G U R U]

The gameplay in all 3 Smash games is pretty shallow. No one can really deny that.

My example of a deep game? The Disgaea series.
Do you even know about all the advanced techniques in Melee? I've never played Disgaea before so I can't comment too much however I was under the impression that it was just a REALLY long RPG. I highly doubt it takes as much skill and thought process as Melee.

[Oni]

Do you even know about all the advanced techniques in Melee? I've never played Disgaea before so I can't comment too much however I was under the impression that it was just a REALLY long RPG. I highly doubt it takes as much skill and thought process as Melee.

Well, this is the first time I've met someone who was not too familiar with the TRPG. No, Disgaea is not just a "REALLY long RPG". Disgaea is a fully customizable game where you create most of the characters yourself (other than the obvious main characters). So the ability to make a truly strong team is purely up to you, which means you need to know what you're doing. Considering nearly every character starts at level 1, and the max level is 9999 (that includes items).

Sure, they're not even in the same category of game, so naturally a TRPG would be deeper gameplay wise than a 2-bit trying-to-be-a-fighter game. I don't really consider Smash a "fighting game".

Also, commenting on a game despite not knowing about it is foolish.

[G U R U]

All I'm saying is that in my opinion, RPG's, hell all single player games in general, take less skill then multiplayer games because human > computer. Obviously there are some exceptions but not many.

I guess I'm just the kind of person who likes to beat people at games. I could really care less about story in a game.

[Oni]

Ever heard of "leader boards"? Yeah, that's a competitive aspect of Disgaea. Human against human.

[G U R U]

I didn't know it had leaderboards but that's not the same thing. That's just "how many hours of grinding can I put in today to get my score higher than this other guys"

[Oni]

Sure it is. It so would be, if Disgaea had that kind of primitive "scoring" system.

[Llian]

Hey guys chill. Techniques and DEEP story don't really matter once the player/owner of the disc is having fun right?

Though, I did hear that Melee was better than Brawl in a number of ways (in what ways I can't even remember because it's been so long since I've never heard the name SSBB). I had a friend who used to go to tournys all the time.

[Elk]

There's your issue. Your friend may be a great person, and this isn't a personal attack at him, but in general smash tourny people are the worst tourny people to have ever existed, and likely ever will exist.

It's like the Smash scene birthed some bizarro-tournyfriend ideology that goes against everything a tournament player should be. If you look at the definition of scrub in any other games tourny scene, it will be exactly what a smash tourny player is.

If you look at the smash scene's definition of scrub, it's actual tourny players.

Why are Smash tourny players. . . second class?
House Rules.
House rules were known as the norm in arcades across the land when arcades were big. And the people who played by them were scrubs. wimps too stupid and stubborn to learn to play the game. They created their own in house rules such as "no throwing. throwing is cheap" or "stop throwing fireballs, that's cheap." This can be seen as a "virtue" of smash players, with their insistence on removing levels and items, because they are too weak to adapt. The only stage that is "banned" in, for the sake of comparison SF4 (and this isn't banned so much as disliked enough to ask to change the level(usually by both parties)) is the volcano stage, because the reds are harsh on peoples eyes, and are bad for people who are colour blind. The only character I can think of who was banned in tournies (in SF in general, not SF4) is secret character Akuma. You need to actually do the code when you want to use him. He isn't just an unlock. And he is so broken most matchups were 9-1 10-0, because he is a boss, and wasn't even attempted to balance.

The short version is the scrub can't compete on even grounds, so they have to implement their own rules giving themseles more of a chance of winning, rather then trying to adapt to the reality of the situation and grow as a player. This is also the definition of a Smash Tourny player.

The reason these... people dislike Brawl is because if fixed some bugs that weren't intended in melee. So not only are their things changed the scrubs don't like (remember, scrubs can't adapt), but the glitches that weren't even intended that they were abusing to keep an advantage over people who didn't abuse the exploits. And that made them angry. How dare they fix the errors with the old game...

So the more hardcore of these scrubs actually went so far as to modify Brawl making Brawl"+" to make it "better", adding the glitches back in, and removing the changes. Because the only thing they really wanted in Brawl was prettier graphics and Sonic.


/end rant.

[Llian]

Well that certainly explains a lot of things...:uh:

I get the gist of things now. So basically Melee was a broken version of Brawl. Brawl fixed the broken parts that most horrible players can't play without hence it's now being called the inferior game.

Sounds like BB:CS before anyone saw footage of it.:ha:

[G U R U]

There's your issue. Your friend may be a great person, and this isn't a personal attack at him, but in general smash tourny people are the worst tourny people to have ever existed, and likely ever will exist.

It's like the Smash scene birthed some bizarro-tournyfriend ideology that goes against everything a tournament player should be. If you look at the definition of scrub in any other games tourny scene, it will be exactly what a smash tourny player is.

If you look at the smash scene's definition of scrub, it's actual tourny players.

Why are Smash tourny players. . . second class?
House Rules.
House rules were known as the norm in arcades across the land when arcades were big. And the people who played by them were scrubs. wimps too stupid and stubborn to learn to play the game. They created their own in house rules such as "no throwing. throwing is cheap" or "stop throwing fireballs, that's cheap." This can be seen as a "virtue" of smash players, with their insistence on removing levels and items, because they are too weak to adapt. The only stage that is "banned" in, for the sake of comparison SF4 (and this isn't banned so much as disliked enough to ask to change the level(usually by both parties)) is the volcano stage, because the reds are harsh on peoples eyes, and are bad for people who are colour blind. The only character I can think of who was banned in tournies (in SF in general, not SF4) is secret character Akuma. You need to actually do the code when you want to use him. He isn't just an unlock. And he is so broken most matchups were 9-1 10-0, because he is a boss, and wasn't even attempted to balance.

The short version is the scrub can't compete on even grounds, so they have to implement their own rules giving themseles more of a chance of winning, rather then trying to adapt to the reality of the situation and grow as a player. This is also the definition of a Smash Tourny player.

The reason these... people dislike Brawl is because if fixed some bugs that weren't intended in melee. So not only are their things changed the scrubs don't like (remember, scrubs can't adapt), but the glitches that weren't even intended that they were abusing to keep an advantage over people who didn't abuse the exploits. And that made them angry. How dare they fix the errors with the old game...

So the more hardcore of these scrubs actually went so far as to modify Brawl making Brawl"+" to make it "better", adding the glitches back in, and removing the changes. Because the only thing they really wanted in Brawl was prettier graphics and Sonic.


/end rant.
You don't know anything and should really learn your place and shut up. Smash players are some of the nicest people I have ever met in my life going out of there way and beyond to drive long distances to pick up and house people they have never even met before and bringing multiple setups for free to help the tournaments run smoothly. Did you ever think that maybe you getting treated badly by other people might have something to do with your attitude? Maybe you're the one who should stop being ignorant and try to learn from the better players instead of getting your ♫♫♫ handed to you and calling them names. What is this 5th grade? Go back to playing with Items on Hyrule I really could care less how you waste your time, while I go to tournaments and make money off a video game k thanks.

btw I could beat you with one hand, with Items on Hyrule. Just sayin.

[Oni]

You don't know anything and should really learn your place and shut up. Smash players are some of the nicest people I have ever met in my life going out of there way and beyond to drive long distances to pick up and house people they have never even met before and bringing multiple setups for free to help the tournaments run smoothly. Did you ever think that maybe you getting treated badly by other people might have something to do with your attitude? Maybe you're the one who should stop being ignorant and try to learn from the better players instead of getting your ♫♫♫ handed to you and calling them names. What is this 5th grade? Go back to playing with Items on Hyrule I really could care less how you waste your time, while I go to tournaments and make money off a video game k thanks.

btw I could beat you with one hand, with Items on Hyrule. Just sayin.

Several contradictions.

btw I could beat you with one hand, with Items on Hyrule.

I'll take you up on this. Brawl, items on, Melee Hyrule stage. So, which hand are you going to use? Choose wisely. Are you going to take attacks, with no movement, or movement with no attacks?

My friend code? 0860-4660-9499

[G U R U]

Several contradictions.



I'll take you up on this. Brawl, items on, Melee Hyrule stage. So, which hand are you going to use? Choose wisely. Are you going to take attacks, with no movement, or movement with no attacks?

My friend code? 0860-4660-9499
Well for one I was talking about a Melee match and two brawl wifi is even more terrible then regular Brawl. Also you seem more experienced in Smash games in general Oni, so you're probably much better than Elk and I doubt I could beat you with one hand lol. Challenge was only directed at him because I highly doubt I could beat anyone even somewhat decent with one hand (although with Items on I might get lucky because that's all playing with items is).

[Oni]

Well for one I was talking about a Melee match and two brawl wifi is even more terrible then regular Brawl. Also you seem more experienced in Smash games in general Oni, so you're probably much better than Elk and I doubt I could beat you with one hand lol. Challenge was only directed at him because I highly doubt I could beat anyone even somewhat decent with one hand (although with Items on I might get lucky because that's all playing with items is).

I've had plenty of lag-free Brawl matches. It's what having a good router with the proper ports forwarded gets you. If you're good at playing, then a change of game shouldn't change how you play your main.

[Kibs]

Poster A: :srsly: Only n00bs play meelee

Poster B: :srswtf: nuh uh, only n00bs play brawl

Poster A: :srsly: people who play melee are all retards

Poster B: :srswtf: people who play brawls can't handle melee players

Poster A: :srsly: people who play melee are cheap

Poster B: :srswtf: people who play brawl are cheap

Poster A: :srsly: you're stupid

Poster B: :srswtf: you're stupid

Poster A: :srsly: you're stupid

Poster B: :srswtf: you're stupid

Poster A: :srsly: you're stupid

Poster B: :srswtf: you're stupid

Me: :true: you're all banned

This thread is getting far too out of hand, and I don't want to see it degrade into a flame war. Unless we can all learn to respectfully disagree with eachother I'm ending the discussion for now, finish it with PMs or on MSN or just freaking play eachother. Thread is closed for a while.